A different view of Westbridge Park…
Stone resident Chris Tibbits has produced these aerial views of Westbridge Park that he says show how a supermarket, new leisure centre and play area can be accommodated without building on existing green space.
An aerial view showing a supermarket the size of Aldi in Stone, a leisure centre the size of Stafford’s and Victoria Park’s play area
The same aerial view but with a supermarket the size of Morrison’s in Stone
Chris said: There haven’t been many ideas on how the leisure facilities that will last at least the next 20 years could be funded without a supermarket, so I wanted to see how everything could fit in without touching the green areas if that’s the way that things end up going.
By creating a more accurate plan view at a standardised 493m height we can see that there would be space to fit everything in that we need: keeping Westbridge Park green AND giving the community a fantastic leisure centre and swimming pool with children’s play areas to bring us up to date.
According to the Portas Report, new leisure and supermarket facilities should ideally be built close to town centres if the High Street is to survive. So, with a little bit of planning and creativity all this could get more people spending money in Stone and help the High Street as well! I just like to think positively about the whole thing and I, like a lot of other Stone residents, would love some more modern leisure facilities. There has to be a win/win situation out there that means we can have them as soon as possible.
Stafford Borough Council have said that they will draw up some artists’ impressions in the New Year of what a new leisure centre could potentially look like and no doubt they will be even more accurate and give us a better idea of what we might actually get.
Keep Westbridge Park Green founder Rob Kenney produced his own, very different, aerial view recently (you can see it HERE).
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N.B. The Aldi store is not on Google Earth yet so i had to use the old building and car park that was there as a reference for the size.
Oh I do like a bit of positive thinking however a supermarket comes with a petrol station too. What happens to the land that becomes available if Alleynes Sport centre closes…yet another housing estate? I’ve shopped in Tesco’s & Asda in Stafford and they certainly don’t encourage me to hit the high street, neither do the ones in Hanley or Newcastle. A high street needs to have a pull of it’s own, ie Farmers market, unique shops, great cafes & restaurants not a supermarket close by, we’ve already got that..and then there’s the parking issue not nearly enough on your layout. Still we need to progress with leisure facilities….or do we?
Hi Scooby. The new pics now show over 200 car park spaces around the Supermarkets alone. I didn’t think we needed another petrol station. As far as I can see the High Street has everything you mention already but shop after shop seems to keep closing and turning into a charity shop. I am not so sure another supermarket would cause such a problem – people can already shop in Morissons and Co-op etc or get in their car and drive out of Stone to Stafford / Newcastle etc. Anyway, the idea of the pics was just to help me put things into perspective a bit better.
Hi Scooby. The new pics now show over 200 car park spaces around the Morrisons Supermarket. I didn’t think we needed another petrol station. As far as I can see the High Street has everything you mention already but shop after shop seems to keep closing and turning into a charity shop. I am not so sure another supermarket would cause such a problem – people can already shop in Morissons or get in their car and drive out of Stone to Stafford / Newcastle etc. Anyway, the idea of the pics was just to help me put things into perspective a bit better and to see if any of the Green Space would have to be lost.
Jamie has actually uploaded the wrong pics – he is working to get the correct ones on now
The correct pictures are now on the post. Sorry about that
Correct photos are above now
The leisure centre is totally out of proportion or the wrong
size. The three tennis courts that are shown take up an area of 1584m². This is
based on a tennis court is 24m X 11m multiply by 3 and doubled allowing for the
surround area. The tennis court footprint looks to be very similar to Leisure
centre footprint used.
The Stafford Borough Westbridge Park Leisure facility strategy
(available here: http://keepwestbridgeparkgreen.org/images/sbc%20cabinetAA.pdf)
states that a pool hall of 1232 m² is required. The pool hall would not have floor
above it due to ventilation and other requirements. An area of 352 m² is then
left to build the remaining leisure centre (18.7m X 18.7m) to put the remaining
2644 m² without a sports hall or 3238 m² with a sports hall. All of the
dimension can be found in the aforementioned document.
You could only fit all of that in if the building was was
either 7 storeys or 9 storeys respectively. As for a car park of 140 spaces
serving both a super market and leisure centre is totally undersized and
unrealistic. Where do all the people that work at each building, the shoppers
and leisure Users Park? There would be a huge queue into the car park to wait
for and find a space.
So if this is out of proportion, what else is?
Hi Rob, the “leisure centre” looks like it is pretty much twice the footprint of the Tennis courts on the above pics to me and at least half of it could be two storey – are you looking at the wrong pics?… The Leisure centre is in 2 halves labelled (1 of 2) and (2 of 2) and if only one half of it was two storey we would have about 3 times the floor space of the existing tennis courts to play with, right? So that is nearly 4800m sq by your reckoning. The 1232sqm swimming pool would fit in no problem in the single storey half and it would not need to have anything above it, leaving 2 x 1600msq areas for a gym, exercise rooms, squash courts, stage, etc etc. I think that is plenty. No doubt more parking could be added if required by moving things around to suit. You could get another 40 cars in if you pushed the Morissons further upwards a bit for a start. The idea was just to illustrate that it is possible to get the basics in that we need without building all over the grass. I am not sure it needs to be “9 storeys” high?!! Plus, yes, think of all the jobs it would create! These were not meant to be Architects plans by any means but at least they don’t have a river running through the middle of it it though eh?
I must of been using the wrong pics from earlier.A huge mistake you have made Chris is that you are forgetting that to build over the Sewage pumping station at Westbridge would be almost impossible unless you wanted to spend millions on repositioning it and its associated pipework.
Good point Rob. Assuming that we use the Morissons example, i guess that we would have to halve the size of the car park at the side of the leisure centre there to fit the pumping station in. The sewage pumping station is about the same size as the other red brick building over that side isn’t it? That would equate to about 20 car parking spaces. That’s a cheaper way of doing it than trying to move it. There is always a way… Think of all the construction and engineering heritage we have here! (canals, locks etc).
I agree with Chris, if people are worried about the footprint of the new building simply insist on more storeys rather than holding on this blanket approach of resisting all development on the site.
I would like to see new sports facilities a
swimming pool an Olympic stadium 5 screen cinema and a park the size of Hyde
park. BUT I am a realist Stone is a
small town of about 20,000 people and could not support those things. Look at one for example swimming pools. My wife and I are both teachers who
believe that children should learn to swim and should have access to swimming
facilities as part of their school curriculum. My wife has taught swimming in school for a number of years
Stoke on Trent is about 650,000 people the thirteenth biggest metropolitan area in the UK. It has one public swimming pool Fenton Manor and two other swimming/facilities Waterworld and Dimensions.
Up until recently a number of secondary schools in Stoke on Trent had pools ALL those schools have shut their pools down or had them demolished. New academies (such as the Discovery Academy) are being built and were offered the option of having a pool. ALL the new schools have turned them down. Why –the cost of keeping the water heated. Even the ENERGY EFFICIENT POOLS cost a fortune to heat. Look up the figures
Stone has Alleynes’ pool which would not be economically sustainable if it was not open to the public. If Alleynes becomes an academy it will still
have to let the public use the pool as the costs will still be the same: simple
economics.
So much as I would like to see a 12 lane 50
metre Olympic pool on Stone business park it will not happen. If Stoke on Trent can only support 1 pool and 2 semi private waterparks with 650,000 how will Stone support 2 pools with 20,000 people. Before anyone says people
will come from out of town to use the pool, who says? Where is the evidence? Where are the surveys? Why do people not drive in to use the pools in Stoke? Perhaps most people are not that bothered about swimming.
Woolworths was a really useful shop but it closed because people did not use it.
Look at the example of Stoke on Trent Stone is one of the smallest towns in the
country to have access to 1 pool. It would not be financially sustainable to have two.
Allan Skerratt
Allan,
Your missing the point. The school swimming pools do not, and can not, offer the service that people now demand. After a long day / week at work i want to go to a luxurious leisure centre, which has a gym, spa and sauna facilites, and possibly even a bar for some light refreshment before i go home. School swimming pools can not offer this service and, therefore, they do not attract the footfall required to sustain them. Hence, they are being closed.
The new pool will be funded by the leisure operator, therefore, it will be funded from memberships and patronage etc etc. Allan, you obviously don’t visit modern gyms or leisure facilities?? The Alleynes swimming pool will, as it currently is, be funded by the County Council. Different pots of funding!
I am continually perplexed by the naivity of the peoples’ comments. Do people honestly believe that operators would suggest a new supermarket or leisure facility if a DEMAND did not exist. Leisure operators and supermarkets need to make money, as such they only invest in areas where they are confident to make a returm. This is common sense and every person would do the same.
Allan, ask yourself, if you were considering opening a shop in Stone wouldn’t you do your research first? Would you look at possible competitors, the affluence of the area, the local population, their existing shopping habits etc etc…..This is exactly what the large operators do.
So please move away from the argument about demand and need because its an argument that you will not win and if went to an appeal the planning inspector would dismiss it.
Mark
The point I made about swimming pools in Stoke on Trent is an example purely as evidence. I would love a new leisure complex with pool in Stone. BUT Phone any of the schools that used to have pools or any of the academies that could have had energy efficient ‘Greenpools’ in Stoke on Trent. They refused because of the prohibitive costs of running a swimming pool. I am in favour of new sports and leisure facilities in Stone but I like to produce evidence to back my points which you don’t do. I try and argue the point I am making with evidence.
You say:’The new pool will be funded by the leisure operator, therefore, it will be funded from memberships and patronage.’
So look at an example In Stoke on Trent ‘Total Fitness’ (and yes I have visited it) great pool lovely facilities. It cost around £60 per month membership and it has close down because it could not attract enough people. Remember Stoke has over 640,000 people Stone
has 20,000. There are many other examples of private
leisure facilities that have closed down In Stoke because they are not
financially viable.
You patronise other contributors with your comment:’ I am continually perplexed by the naivity of the peoples’ comments. Do people honestly believe that operators would suggest a new supermarket or leisure facility if a DEMAND did not exist.’
I think it is naïve of you to suggest that all business are well thought through and responsive to demand. Why then are there
empty factories, gyms, shops, and businesses all over Staffordshire ?
Alan, are you suggesting that large developers do not do there Due Diligence prior to developing a site? Only in very bouyant markets would a developer ever contemplate building a speculative development and even then the development would be more likely to be for a simple construction that can easily be adapted for a number of users. I can assure that there is no way a large developer would build unless there was sufficient evidence that there was a need. The fact that 4 supermarkets have expressed an interest in Stone clearly shows that there is a need for a supermarket in Stone – So lets please put that argument to bed.
The reason why busineses, factories, gyms fail is because they fail to adapt or fail to meet the needs of the users or the customer. Once this happens the building comes to the end of its useful life. That is not the failure of the developer but the result of changing circumstances.
Alan, Before you start comparing to the way Stoke on Trent is run compared to Stafford BC I would urge you to watch “The Day the Town Hall Shrank”. Stoke on Trent is an underpeforming council and has been failing for a number of years, and long before the austerity measures took hold. Stoke on Trent could support additional swimming pools, however due to poor management and its inability to recover the massive amount of money the council is owed due to not collecting Council Tax has led to its downfall. I am too familiar with Longton, Longton like the rest of Stoke has been struggling for a number of years and although the TESCO has exaserbated the problems being faced by some independant retailers in Stoke it is not the main cause. Stoke has high unemployment and is unable to attract any notbale inward investment and has a council more concerned with self preservation than meeting the needs of the town which is why it is in the mess it currently is.
Your point regarding whether Stone needs a new pool is not based on any facts merely your only opininon. There are numerous findings which suggest that a number of Stone residents are forced to use the pool in Stafford becuase of the access issues at Alleynes. No amount of inward investment or improvements to this pool is going to change this becuase it will always be a shared pool.
Nice try guys-some
creative thinking. The Moorings would probably be in shadow from the buildings
along on the canal- (Sun tracking south east to south west. You can actually see
the shadows cast by the trees in your picture) Are the tennis courts on the badger
sets? Assuming they are still there. – But looks good if it all fits. Personally,
I sooner have the sports facilities up at Alleynes for the youngsters to use as
part of their lessons; (Olympic legacy and all that) not unless both sets of
facilities are being kept open. I can’t see that really. In fact I have serious
doubts that a pool will be built at all. I would suggest that Stone is too
small and pools are quite expensive to run. This is the big problem with the
proposal. Nobody knows or has committed to anything built on the Park. We are look
at the Proposal to pass a mixed site development and that’s it. We are all guessing
at what else could be built apart from the supermarket and who knows what we
will get. Can you really afford to trust our representatives unless they give
us firm proposal of what IS intended?
Thanks Chris for highlighting that you cannot fit a super market,
leisure centre and play areas on Westbridge. Here’s how you’ve done it: 1) You
have placed Morrisons up against the road,over the pavement and outside the
Westbridge Park boundary. 2) You have not allowed for a service road and
unloading bays at the rear of the supermarket for goods inward. I suppose they
could bring the stock by narrow boat and crane it off.3)You have built a car
park on top of the sewage pumping station.4)Both parts of the leisure centre
and another car park are built where the sewage pipe that crosses the canal to
the pumping station runs. Could the sewage pipe be used as a slide in the pool
area!!?.5) All of those mentioned in 4. are outside the perimeter of Westbridge.
Severn Trent owns the land the pipe is on and beyond to the canal tow path.6)you
have put play areas in places they would not be able to build on because of
Badgers.7) you have not allowed for a new traffic island/junction into
Westbridge or an adequate two lane road inside Westbridge. Thanks again for
highlighting how it would not fit without encroaching onto the grassed area.
Hi Rob. Thanks for that! You have said you support improved facilities but push against any ideas…..You seem very negative about it all. Perhaps you have some other brilliant funding ideas other than a supermarket? If you do it would be great and you would really make a name for yourself! I genuinely mean that. With regards to my illustrations, I am sure the planners could move things around to suit. Your comments were cutting – perhaps it is difficult to see other plans when yours were intent on showing a complete bull dozing of the existing park. If nothing else these illustrations show that there is plenty of space for substantial redevelopment around the green fields without touching the grassed areas – more so if our leisure centre is not as big as Stafford’s and the supermarket ends up smaller than Morrissons. (Aldi has no access roads and the loading bay is at the front by the way). So, the fact i have gone over the edges a little bit here and there is nothing to worry about in the grand scheme of things. I did however try to avoid adding things that weren’t relevant – like the stream which you included. Maybe you could do something constructive and look at how you can improve the existing facilities like the swings that have not had any seats on them for months rather than going on about ‘using the sewerage pipes as a slide into the pool area’. The part where the “swings” are is a mess, there is broken glass everywhere plus i noticed a lot of grafitti around. It looks like it is turning into a site of anti social behaviour because it is getting run down. How about getting that sorted if you are not keen on getting it updated any time soon? It’s really easy for you to keep saying NO to everything.
All my points are
valid and I stand by them. I have also stated that we should use the £6.9
million that SBC will get in new homes bonus. But people choose to accept that it’s okay for the funds to be used to prop up their coffers. I have always stated
that I want improvements. I have always stated that I don’t want a super market
or any building on the existing grassed area. I have campaigned in the past for
the replacement of swings and play areas that SBC took away and never replaced. Your plan only shows it is impossible to build do without encroaching on the grassed area. The report from SBC states a super market 3 times the size of Aldi is required. Please read through my previous posts. I have never said NO to everything. I activelyencourage improvements to facilities.
Rob, do you know if the Council has done any costings on how much it would cost to provide a brand new leisure facilty and park at Westbridge, Which developments in SBC are going to generate the £6.9m New Homes Bonus? Are any of these developments proposed in Stone? And what guarantees do you have that this £6.9m (or any part of it) is going to be spent on improving leisure facilities in Stone?
I am sceptical that the NHB will be spent on leisure facilities in Stone. I would be grateful for your responses to my questions.
Rob Kenny, I wont put your plan side by side with the Council’s proposed plan/artists impression which came out last week. However, anyone reading this is the future should look at what actually came out of all this here and decide for themselves which speculative design was more positive and accurate: http://alittlebitofstone.com/2013/01/31/first-look-at-plans-for-westbridge-park/
I wouldn’t want to loose our green space and I personally think a supermarket is the wrong thing opposite a food festival!! How about something different entirely just throwing it our there into the mix. How about a cine bowl three screens, 8 bowling alleys and an ice rink suspended over underground car parking. They have a small one in Uttoxeter and its a great family venue and it would be ideal for Stone teenagers to actually have somewhere to go of a weekend. I take my kids there and its great. Selling our land to fund our facilities may well go ahead but lets try thinking outta the box??
Why do you think a supermarket opposite a food festival is wrong? A supermarket is more compatible with a food festival than a 8 lane bowling alley and ice rink. I’m also not convinced that there is sufficient profit in Stone for these operators to move into the area.
Lastly, it is very expensive to have undercroft parking. I’m not convinced that a cinema or ice rink operator could or would pay for this.
I’m afraid we all need to accept that the money pot has dried up and if we want anything we need the help of the private sector to fund it!
I am not going to comment on Chris Tibbett’s alternative plan for Westbridge Park, others have done that. I would like to look at the arguments against another supermarket.
I believe an edge of Town Supermarket will force more shops in the HIgh street to close. If you look at the small and medium sized towns round Staffordshire, Derbtshire and Cheshire, you will see that most towns that have edge of town supermarkets or retail parks have declining town centres. I have recently had discussions with a number of Town and Borough councillors about this issue. Conservative councillors believe that a new Supermarket will encourage shoppers to stay in Stone and attract new shoppers into Stone. BUT the evidence does not support that. Until recently I worked in Longton where the town centre has declined rapidly since the Tesco store was built. Speak to any trader in Longton and ask them what has happened to the town centre. I visited Newcastle 2 weeks ago it has 11 charity shops and a number of empty shops. Stafford itself has over 40 empty retail premises and 10 charity shops. When I confronted the Conservative Borough councillors about edge of town development they refused to respond to evidence I gave them about town centre decline. Visit any small to medium sized town with a large edge of town supermarket (or two) and look for yourself.
If we have another supermarket on the edge of the town I feel we will see a significant and rapid decline of the town centre. I am not against Leisure facilities and feel they are needed in Stone But not another supermarket and especially not on Westbridge Park.
As shoppers we all have a choice to choose where we shop, unfortunately due to convenience and opening hours many of us (me included) choose to shop at the national supermarkets. I’m afraid that this is the sign of the times.
I would much prefer to shop at the local independent shops, however I’m afraid that the only time that these shops are available for me to use is on a Saturday, which is not always ideal. As such, I’m afraid if the local shops want to compete with the big supermarkets they must extend their opening hours in order to allow the 9-5pm worker to shop at them.
No one is looking out for the little man anymore. Just a bunch of fat cats trying to feed your pockets! My point is we dont need it, invest the money into the old pool and our existing shops and empty shops this is a farmers town, such a beautiful little town and building on that land will ruin it. Such a shame That land Is the heart of our town I played there as a child… the fair … the festival … the floats … the stone run … food and drink… Sunday league footy… sunbathing after school…. fireworksnight and the bonfire…so so so so so much more I’m sad this land could be taken from generations to come and our traditions, quirks and old shops that make are lovely little town stone will be suffocated by the fat cats. Without its heart the town will die.
The council cant fund private shops. They are all privately owned and leased, why do people think that our tax money should help someone run a business?. Nobody does their weekly shopping on the High Street anyway or you would see shopping trolleys on it! The plan is to make the park better and improve leisure facilites keeping in mostly green. That will bring in more tourists and keep Stone residents in Stone and a supermarket will keep even more people in Stone which is better for the local economy and greener. 100 odd jobs created in the new supermanrket = more money to spend on the High Street. Besides, there are already supermarkets, all another will do is make it easier for hard working people to get shopping done on a Saturday. This Leisure centre would cost every man woman and child in Stone £500 and it should be welcomed with open arms – look at what has happened in Rugeley, their new centre has over 5000 members and looks fantastic, it is an asset to the community.